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[00:02:02] <sueastside> thats gonna be awesome when completed, can finally use "all" my pcs efficiently :)
[00:02:19] <iceeey> hi
[00:02:23] <sueastside> hi iceeey
[00:02:31] <sueastside> iceeey: http://www.jyvideo.co.uk/genjix/verse.mpeg
[00:03:36] <sueastside> night
[00:05:21] <iceeey> I'm impressed :)
[00:06:40] <josePhoenix> how big's the mpeg?
[00:06:54] <iceeey> i dunno, but i streamed it fine
[00:07:07] <josePhoenix> ok
[00:07:11] <genjix> 30mb or so, say your thoughts in #crystalspace so more download the video too :D
[00:08:27] <iceeey> genjix, we're also wanting to have realtime editing for Peragro... but not the meshes themselves
[00:08:39] <iceeey> so maybe we can incorporate that somehow :)
[00:08:54] <genjix> ah if you use blender you should look at all the new b2cs stuff
[00:08:59] <genjix> (especially obsidian)
[00:09:11] <iceeey> ah? does obsidian use verse?
[00:09:24] <iceeey> i guess I better check it out
[00:09:46] <josePhoenix> >.> obsidian?
[00:10:03] <josePhoenix> mh, quicktime isn't doing the streamything
[00:10:07] <iceeey> i wanted to make our editor independent of what modeller you use -- e.g. you can use any model in CS format, no matter where it was exported from
[00:10:20] <iceeey> so it is a world editor mainly
[00:10:23] <genjix> obsidian != verse 2 different components of b2cs
[00:10:26] <iceeey> object composer kind of thing
[00:10:42] <genjix> ah verse is working in max, maya and blender so far.
[00:10:47] <iceeey> yes i know
[00:11:32] <iceeey> if we can make it verse compatible, then there is even more realtime editing
[00:11:50] <genjix> obsidian is being able to have a python object, and you can control it by assigning it values.
[00:12:40] <genjix> i.e you have a light control and you can just set values of the properties and cs will update itself automatically
[00:13:55] <josePhoenix> I'm still not clear on what obsidian -is- >.>
[00:15:14] <genjix> well you have an editor and the slider just changes a value which straight away updates your scene in cs.
[00:16:26] <iceeey> apparently there's a lot of editor improvement stuff going on :) hard to make sense of it
[00:16:45] <iceeey> Verse integration, b2cs, obsidian, pycsel
[00:18:13] <genjix> yes, we're all together and the same :)
[00:18:20] <iceeey> you are all the same?
[00:18:23] <josePhoenix> :O
[00:18:26] <josePhoenix> The truth is out
[00:18:53] <josePhoenix> I don't care as long as I have an editor with a button called "Create Totally Original and Incredibly Detailled World"
[00:18:55] <genjix> pycsel uses obsidian, b2cs uses obsidian, b2cs is at beginning of using verse plugin (I started on this morning)
[00:19:55] <iceeey> ah, i figured
[00:19:59] <genjix> in b2cs also theres celstart, the b2cs3d is 3d overlay (using verse), pycegui over obsidian
[00:21:12] <josePhoenix> hmmm... will there ever be a photoshop plugin for verse so I can skin stuff and see it in blender in realtime on the other monitor?
[00:22:16] <genjix> no idea. but you can be over the internet on different computers too.
[00:23:36] <iceeey> genjix, is there any page with info on obsidian?
[00:23:51] <genjix> *was but cades took it down
[00:26:30] <josePhoenix> to surprise us? >.>
[00:27:45] <iceeey> that's nice
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[03:19:47] <iceeey> caedes, around?
[03:20:20] <josePhoenix> missing for 4 hrs :|
[03:20:33] <iceeey> but you're here
[03:20:48] <josePhoenix> but I'm here, so it's all okay \o/
[03:22:33] <iceeey> yes, all is good
[03:28:13] <Rolenun> \o/
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[08:56:42] <CyaNox> morning
[09:00:00] <josePhoenix> :X
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[09:30:41] <CyaNox> hi PK
[09:37:30] <Japje> morning
[09:41:06] <CyaNox> hi Japje
[09:47:24] <Japje> hi CyaNox
[10:53:18] <PK> hey CyaNox
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[12:21:54] <CyaNox> hi genjix
[12:22:00] <genjix> hiya CyaNox
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[14:54:05] <Induane> hey all :D
[15:01:12] <thebolt> hey Induane
[15:19:00] <Induane> hey thebolt ! :D
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[16:27:55] <iceeey> hi all
[16:34:09] <Induane> hey :D
[17:05:57] <thebolt> hi iceeey
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[18:30:01] <sueastside> hi all
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[21:41:41] <sueastside> hi PK
[21:42:25] <PK> hey sueastside
[21:45:47] <iceeey_> hi PK
[21:46:46] <PK> hey iceeey_
[21:48:24] * PK thinks we should make a mmogg ( massive multiplayer online greeting game) .... seems what we're best at :)
[21:48:57] iceeey_ changed nick to: iceeey
[21:49:40] <iceeey> well i tried talking about separation of engine from game on client-side yesterday but no one was around
[21:49:57] <iceeey> except sueastside basically.. ;)
[21:50:09] <PK> make it datadriven and then there shouldn't be a problem with it
[21:50:20] <iceeey> including GUI?
[21:50:22] <sueastside> who wasnt of much use, cause he had a headache...
[21:50:29] <iceeey> what if we don't want to rely on CEGUI?
[21:50:36] <Induane> :)
[21:53:17] <josePhoenix> yeah, what if you decide to use another interface altogether... like going directly into your -brain- o.o
[21:53:39] <PK> iceeey: well, I guess gui is kind of a problem... you would need to define a widget interface that can be implemented by different gui libraries
[21:53:47] <iceeey> yup
[21:53:56] <PK> like iInventory, iLoginScreen, iChatWindow
[21:54:15] <PK> so you could even use PAWS if you had a weak moment :)
[21:54:47] <josePhoenix> :O
[21:54:50] <josePhoenix> Nevar >.>
[21:54:51] <PK> but then the question remains. Do we need that now?
[21:55:21] <iceeey> need what now? PAWS or gui separation?
[21:55:30] <iceeey> s/separation/abstraction/
[21:55:35] <PK> I guess the current GUI system is already split up in some widgets. so you would just need another layer of abstraction there.
[21:55:47] <iceeey> yup
[21:56:02] <iceeey> and also make not of which parts of the UI are specific to the game
[21:56:03] <iceeey> note
[21:56:19] <PK> well, which are?
[21:56:26] <PK> dispite the skin
[21:56:29] <iceeey> everything as far as I can see
[21:56:40] <iceeey> even the button layout is
[21:56:45] <iceeey> or what buttons are available
[21:57:07] <PK> well, I thought you mean game implementation vs. game engine
[21:57:32] <iceeey> i do
[21:57:37] <PK> all games have an inventory.... what is show in the inventory is datadriven. So that's just game engine there
[21:57:47] <iceeey> not all games have an inventory
[21:57:55] <PK> then don't use that widget
[21:58:51] <PK> well, look how eclipse does it... I mean that's probably the ultimate example of what we try to do here... just not for games but desktop applications.
[21:59:05] <iceeey> what, how do they do it?
[21:59:12] <PK> each view (widget) they have is a plugin. if you don't want it, don't use it
[21:59:25] <sueastside> how the inventory is handled is different too, stacking, item per slot, item with slotsize, weight limits etc...
[21:59:33] <iceeey> sueastside, true
[22:00:18] <iceeey> i wanted to focus more on the flexibility of the framework... whether you make common helpers available is another issue
[22:00:27] <PK> that's just the datamodel behind it. the widget remains. and if our inventory doesn't fit you at all, you can still implement the iInventory yourself
[22:01:25] <sueastside> well thats the point i think, make it flexible enough to allow that with certain ease...
[22:02:58] <PK> btw, that's also how CS and CEL work... to some extent at least. With the plugins I mean.
[22:04:28] <iceeey> well my point is that, on the server it's well separated: you have the generic C++ code which runs the entity system, and the entity templates + behaviors which are game specific, finally you have the C++ entity components which are usable for all games
[22:04:57] <iceeey> on the client, you could go with the same system, considering the entity framework is general
[22:05:14] <iceeey> however you have to deal more with the content, which requires the View
[22:05:29] <iceeey> the View being the GUI, mesh data, textures, etc
[22:05:57] <iceeey> that data is game specific
[22:06:29] <PK> well, mesh and texture are easy.... those really are data driven :)
[22:06:34] <iceeey> yup
[22:06:47] <PK> the gui we discussed already... so what's left?
[22:06:57] <iceeey> we already discussed? i don't recall any solution
[22:07:36] <PK> you would need to define a widget interface that can be implemented by different gui libraries .......... like iInventory, iLoginScreen, iChatWindow
[22:07:48] <josePhoenix> I like this place :D so productive compared to #planeshift-gmtalk
[22:07:55] <PK> make them plugins and configure them with a config.xml or so...
[22:08:29] <PK> last time I checked on gmtalk it was trying actively to compete with #idlerpg
[22:08:34] <iceeey> so for each gui library, you need to implement each dialog window? that sounds like you need N*M implementations where N is number of gui libraries and M is number of dialogs
[22:08:57] <josePhoenix> PK, well... that's when stupid GMs weren't enforcing stupid rules on players :P
[22:08:58] <iceeey> or you want to abstract the gui library itself?
[22:09:02] <PK> hm, well, how many gui libraries do you want to use anyway?
[22:09:33] <iceeey> it doesn't matter
[22:09:46] <iceeey> as long as it's flexible enough that we (or our users) can switch
[22:10:16] <iceeey> and also to keep the GUI code related to the game and not the gui system
[22:11:04] <iceeey> so if we can abstract the gui library and implement dialog windows using that abstraction, the system should be gui independent
[22:11:17] <PK> well, we could drop all of PT and start the grate iGUI project that provides one standard API for all GUI systems out there.... but that would really make up a full project on its own
[22:12:06] <iceeey> i don't see us implementing anything more than CEGUI right now
[22:12:40] <iceeey> however it would make the code much cleaner regardless of the library used
[22:13:35] <PK> well, I didn't really read sueastside's implementation of the gui window classes... but iirc, there isn't much CEGUI code outside those, is there?
[22:13:43] <PK> so that would already be an abstraction.
[22:14:50] <iceeey> yes, but it's not enough
[22:14:56] <iceeey> just ask sueastside how annoying it was to write that code
[22:15:27] <PK> well, cegui is annoying... I doubt you can change that without changing cegui itself :)
[22:15:43] <sueastside> well some abstraction has been applied already in the form of slots, objects and inventory, not much but its a start :)
[22:16:18] <PK> sueastside: and I guess that's a good way to go
[22:16:58] <iceeey> well i want to make development of the client GUI quick to make and easy to change, like the rest of the game :)
[22:16:58] <PK> needs maybe some more abstraction, so you could implement the interfaces with another GUI library, but other than this, what do we need more?
[22:17:46] <iceeey> maybe it boils down to being able to edit the GUI in realtime and just assign some event handlers (behavior scripts) to buttons and be done
[22:17:49] <sueastside> pretty sure the gui will work itself out, if i have some more time to spend on it...
[22:19:26] <sueastside> been thinking of some kind of logical blocks, which holds information that updates itself, and youd just "drop" that in place in your gui....
[22:23:39] <iceeey> way i see it, it's all part of entity system: e.g. if you want to bring up the inventory, you click on the player -> View Inventory, which brings up a view of the inventory.. when you drag an item to a different slot, the GUI component triggers an event to the behavior layer which sends an Item Move action request to the server.. then it will receive the update from the server if successful which will update the GUI vi
[22:23:39] <iceeey> ew
[22:25:29] <PK> you know that's a really hugh project you try to do there...
[22:26:16] <iceeey> i think it's actually rather neat and simple
[22:26:25] <sueastside> hmm view->behaviourlayer->network network->view, shouldnt that be network->behaviourlayer->view?
[22:26:37] <PK> iceeey: less work than a 'normal' mmorpg?
[22:27:01] <PK> I guess it would even be more work.
[22:27:18] <iceeey> sueastside, i skipped a step i guess: the behavior layer has an update handler
[22:27:19] <PK> and a 'normal' mmorpg is already the hell of a lot work...
[22:27:29] <iceeey> how is that more work?
[22:28:31] <PK> how would it be less? you don't only make a gui, you want to make it even dynamic and editable online. So that's a GUI and a GUI editor combined...
[22:29:00] <iceeey> GUI need not be editable online.. it's a client thing after all
[22:29:04] <iceeey> but in realtime yes
[22:29:04] <sueastside> i really think we shouldnt worry about it too much, it will iron itself out over time....
[22:29:49] <iceeey> besides the fact that an editor would exist doesn't really affect how the GUI implemented, except that it will make the GUI easier to build
[22:29:58] <sueastside> anyways, work tomorrow, so night...
[22:30:01] <PK> I guess we really should focus on what we want to do, and more important, on what we do not want to do... I have to feeling of getting lost in planing somehow :(
[22:30:01] <iceeey> cya sueastside
[22:30:05] <thebolt> Hi
[22:30:10] <PK> hey thebolt
[22:30:38] <iceeey> PK, i would love to start, and i believe thebolt was supposed to make some header interfaces for us to discuss :) ehhe
[22:30:40] <sueastside> less thinking, more doing :)
[22:30:56] <iceeey> however there are some important areas we didn't cover
[22:31:12] <iceeey> not that that precludes any work being done
[22:31:17] * sueastside pokes JohnTitor, log this you shithole!
[22:31:33] <PK> less planing what we would like to do and more defining what we actually want :)
[22:32:01] * iceeey switching to -dev
[22:32:06] <JohnTitor> I'm logging all of it ... :p
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