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[12:42:47] * CyaNox pokes Japje
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[13:24:16] <thebolt> hi CyaNox
[13:45:46] <CyaNox> howdy thebolt
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[16:08:57] <CyaNox> Japje: SG1 S10E20!!!
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[17:37:46] <greenlion> hey! :)
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[17:48:04] <sueastside> hey greenlion CyaNox thebolt
[17:48:18] <thebolt> hi sueastside , greenlion
[17:50:07] <greenlion> anybody played Ethernal Lands? :)
[17:50:31] <sueastside> i did
[17:50:33] <thebolt> a bit, quite some time ago
[17:54:05] <greenlion> and how is it?
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[17:55:55] <sueastside> rather enjoyable, the community isnt very open though, they sort of ignore al newcomers...
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[17:56:36] <sueastside> hey tgwizard iceeey
[17:56:47] <iceeey> hey
[17:58:36] <sueastside> iceeey: do you have an agenda for later?
[17:58:48] <iceeey> not yet :/
[18:29:22] <CyaNox> 1900 gmt+1 was it?
[18:30:58] <iceeey> yup
[18:31:11] <iceeey> that's in 30 min, no?
[18:34:02] <CyaNox> uhu ... could you guys delay that to 30 minutes later
[18:34:16] <CyaNox> I'll be eating at in about 25 minutes
[18:34:18] <iceeey> i wouldn't mind
[18:34:28] <iceeey> we could discuss the agenda then
[18:34:40] <iceeey> or now, if anyone is around
[18:34:57] <CyaNox> I'll read up then ... gotta continue preparing dinner.
[18:35:17] <thebolt> hm, means i should prepare dinner so i have eaten in an hour.. or how long do you anticipate it will be? ;)
[18:35:35] <iceeey> depends what we'll talk about :)
[18:53:11] <sueastside> ok at the delay, im cooking still myself :)
[18:53:26] <thebolt> i did not yet start :P
[18:53:30] <iceeey> time for lunch
[18:54:25] * sueastside suggests pot noodles to thebolt :P
[18:56:42] ChanServ sets mode: +o Induane
[19:02:08] <thebolt> nah,
[19:04:56] <greenlion> gah! just I decided to try smth else - EL server is not working, SL don't allowing new accounts.
[19:05:14] <Induane> ?
[19:05:16] <Induane> :D
[19:05:18] <Induane> hey greenlion
[19:05:28] <greenlion> hey Induane! :)
[19:07:49] <Induane> <3
[19:08:05] <Induane> I guess I came back from lunch break just in time for the meeting then
[19:09:29] <Induane> soon as everyone else eats :)
[19:10:13] <sueastside> Induane: steak again?
[19:15:42] <Induane> lol aye
[19:15:47] <Induane> boss is going out of town tomorrow
[19:15:50] <Induane> so today was steak day
[19:15:52] <Induane> one day early
[19:15:58] <sueastside> :)
[19:17:36] <sueastside> im glad my 6th sense is still working...
[19:20:25] <thebolt> food in owen.. i'll just switch to laptop when its time to eat ;)
[19:20:44] <Induane> :D ok
[19:21:19] <thebolt> (i could also take my plate to my room.. but then it will smell of food all evening :P)
[19:21:45] <sueastside> thebolt: you should make something yummy, then you wouldnt mind the smell :P
[19:22:35] <thebolt> sueastside: hehe
[19:28:04] <Induane> sueastside send me a query when you guys are ready to start - I've set bitchx to beep when you di
[19:28:05] <Induane> do*
[19:28:20] <sueastside> k
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[19:38:03] * Induane works really hard all the sudden!
[19:38:18] <iceeey> okay, I have the agenda pretty much done
[19:39:19] <thebolt> okay?
[19:39:23] <CyaNox> and I'm pretty much done with eating.
[19:39:26] <sueastside> thebolt: I've been wondering on how to partition our world, and what would be practical and technically feasible, atm. Having linked worlds like PS, a grid based terrain(what about threading, cell management and all that un/loading stuff), teleportation portals, ... other options?
[19:39:32] <sueastside> im ready...
[19:40:00] <iceeey> alright
[19:40:03] <iceeey> http://rafb.net/p/XeuKKt11.html
[19:40:12] <iceeey> everyone ready?
[19:40:15] <Induane> aye
[19:41:00] <iceeey> ok, so goals
[19:41:13] <iceeey> does everyone agree that we're making a MMORPG? :)
[19:41:26] <sueastside> yes :)
[19:41:29] * CyaNox agrees
[19:41:45] <Induane> agreed :D lol
[19:42:24] <thebolt> Yes :)
[19:42:28] <iceeey> where massive means any number of players from 0 and up
[19:42:43] <CyaNox> 2 and up I'd say ... :p
[19:42:49] <thebolt> o rhm, i would actually rather say persistent rather than massive
[19:42:54] <sueastside> preferably 2 and up...
[19:43:09] <iceeey> i don't like "massive" either
[19:43:32] <thebolt> cause i don't think it is realistic to go massive in the scale of wow/lineage/anyone with 100k+
[19:43:43] <CyaNox> it might become massive ... but our goals focusses on another part.
[19:43:50] <iceeey> right
[19:43:54] <Induane> About world scalability - do we want a world design that is flexible or have it all preplanned and built large enough that there is room for everyone.
[19:43:58] <thebolt> a bit more like guildwars which is persistent but not really massive
[19:44:19] <sueastside> drop the m and add it back when we have 1000players orso :)
[19:44:58] <sueastside> (wow, lineage cheat though with their stupid shards :P)
[19:45:05] <iceeey> then: multiplayer online role-playing game with a persistent world
[19:45:55] <CyaNox> I also want to mention player freedom.
[19:46:28] <iceeey> can you elaborate?
[19:46:47] <sueastside> hmm freedom how? (still have to be some rules imo, anti-racism and so on..)
[19:46:49] <CyaNox> I don't want to define a standard route or story the player has to play ... I want to give the players the ability to create their own story.
[19:47:09] <sueastside> ah like that sure
[19:47:20] <iceeey> sueastside, those would be up to the server administrator
[19:47:59] <iceeey> CyaNox, so the roles are not fixed
[19:48:11] <CyaNox> (who is taking notes of what we discuss here for the mailinglist?)
[19:48:17] <iceeey> I'm taking notes
[19:48:21] <CyaNox> ok
[19:49:17] <CyaNox> iceeey: How do you want us to proceed? Follow the "agenda" or just throw in what we like to talk about?
[19:49:42] <iceeey> well I'm trying to follow the agenda but it doesn't cover everything so if you have something in the current topic (e.g. Goals), throw it in
[19:51:00] <thebolt> brb
[19:51:10] <CyaNox> hhhmmm there are certain things I'd like to see implemented in the game but am not sure if they are of interrest to our goal.
[19:51:36] <greenlion> how are you defining "persistent world" ?
[19:51:40] <thebolt> b
[19:52:57] <CyaNox> Things like the dynamic world as the CyaZones and iceeeys ecosystem ideas.
[19:53:09] <Induane> CyaZones?
[19:53:11] <iceeey> greenlion, the server can be restarted and the game state remains the same. when you logout and return, you return to the same state (or see any changes that have occurred)
[19:53:21] <greenlion> aha ok.
[19:53:23] <CyaNox> Induane: A very cool idea ... :p
[19:53:39] <CyaNox> Induane: lemme dig up some links
[19:54:13] <iceeey> CyaNox, that is not really persistent world, it's just stuff that changes the world
[19:54:39] <sueastside> iceeey: he said that as a possible goal...
[19:54:51] <iceeey> oh
[19:55:16] <sueastside> "but am not sure if they are of interrest to our goal."
[19:55:44] <CyaNox> Induane: http://wiki.peragro.org/index.php/Category:Zones http://repos.peragro.org/index.php?id=703
[19:55:47] <iceeey> well if they are essential, they should be in the goal
[19:56:41] <Induane> indeed a very cool idea
[19:56:44] <CyaNox> yes but is it something we actually want to implement?
[19:56:45] <Induane> tricky though
[19:56:54] <iceeey> I would certainly like to
[19:57:05] <thebolt> well, i don't think all possible features should be part of the consise goal
[19:57:29] <thebolt> i think it is better to say "evolving worlds" in a goal rather than "evolving according to algorithm X"
[19:57:34] <thebolt> switching to laptop..
[19:57:39] <iceeey> right
[19:57:46] <iceeey> but the idea of dynamic world, should it be in it?
[19:58:11] <CyaNox> I'd say yes since its something I want to have in peragro.
[19:58:14] <iceeey> seems like it is essential to our vision
[19:59:23] <CyaNox> and I think it also invluances gameplay a lot ... It can be seen as one of the vital tools for the player to have their freedom.
[19:59:45] <iceeey> right, player influences the world, it doesn't evolve by itself either
[20:00:03] <CyaNox> I'd say both
[20:00:25] <thebolt> b
[20:00:29] <CyaNox> or well npc's also influance the world just like the environment system
[20:00:36] <iceeey> ok
[20:00:45] <iceeey> technically players are part of environment :)
[20:00:49] <CyaNox> indeed
[20:01:09] <CyaNox> anyway it has great impact on how we proceed on development of our game.
[20:01:26] <thebolt> yea
[20:02:20] <thebolt> so, include the dynamic aspect in the main goals
[20:02:25] <iceeey> yup
[20:02:33] <sueastside> yeah
[20:04:07] <CyaNox> (One minor note ... I prefere to have all major developers have a say on this and since not everybody is in this discussion we'd need to use the mailinglist at the end to either contineu discussion or confirm that everybody agrees.)
[20:04:24] <iceeey> okay
[20:04:38] <greenlion> CyaNox, what examples of non-freedom (from other games) you want to eliminate?
[20:05:00] <CyaNox> the ability to alter the world you life in.
[20:05:47] <CyaNox> for example take guildwars ... a very nice game but you are not able to create your own house and garden around that house ... nor will you be able to alter the direction of the river near your little hut.
[20:06:16] <CyaNox> Another example is if you cut wood from a forest that tree you cut down will actually be cut down and not just be there again when you come back later.
[20:06:33] <CyaNox> forest change this way especially near villages or city;s
[20:07:13] <CyaNox> also forests grow just like any natural occurense. This way a dense forest might occur which might even overgrow an abandoned town.
[20:07:25] <Induane> In the settings work I've done I think that works itself in extremely well except in one way (not saying it can't change) - which is that the past is a reasonably prosperous time, but since you start in an incredibly poor, war-torn present which obviously implies that the world of the past is steamrolling towards an inevitably bleak future.
[20:07:46] <Induane> you end up with a paradoxial element
[20:07:49] <greenlion> aha. so you want basicly everything could be changed.
[20:07:57] <CyaNox> uhu
[20:08:04] <CyaNox> thats what I mean with dynamic
[20:08:24] <iceeey> which creates a rather difficult problem for coding, art and settings
[20:08:33] <Induane> I would love if you built a house in the past that you could return to it in the present and find that it is there, albeit either decrepid or mostly destroyed.
[20:08:46] <thebolt> well, there have to be limits to it too
[20:09:22] <iceeey> can we talk about the Times a bit now?
[20:09:24] <greenlion> yes, you will need very good AI...
[20:09:45] <thebolt> iceeey: times?
[20:09:55] <Induane> time travel
[20:10:01] <iceeey> we had this concept of multiple times
[20:10:04] <CyaNox> I for some reason do not like the idea of different times actually ... might be all the long discussion without any results to how we are going to do it.
[20:10:05] <Induane> right
[20:10:11] <iceeey> where the name Peragro Tempus <-- came from
[20:10:24] <Induane> seems like it should be easy enough to implement imo
[20:10:31] <Induane> but i"m no coder
[20:10:46] <iceeey> what it really seems to reduce to is simply a portal between two worlds
[20:10:47] <thebolt> sure, although i don't know if it is worth to discuss specifics of the settings? or maybe it has enough impact to be
[20:10:51] <Induane> from an artistic perspective though the times would simply be linked with portals which is quite easy to do
[20:11:13] <iceeey> if it is anything more than a portal between two worlds, we need to consider it now
[20:11:21] <Induane> you just have to manipluate it all in a way that is coherent.
[20:11:27] <Induane> I prefer it to be two times
[20:11:43] <Induane> fits the title, meshes with what I've tried to do, and isn't unfeasible
[20:11:49] <iceeey> are they completely independent of each other?
[20:11:56] <thebolt> well, that is the important question i think
[20:12:06] <thebolt> i take it it should be the same world at different times
[20:12:09] <Induane> No - the events of the past are the reason the present is in its current state.
[20:12:20] <thebolt> Induane: yes, but mix that with the dynamic nature
[20:12:27] <greenlion> I think, you shouldn't be able to alter anything in Past and Future - just watch...
[20:12:34] <thebolt> if you build a house in a place, will it "pop up" in the future?
[20:12:36] <Induane> this isn't chaos theory
[20:12:43] <CyaNox> I think the multiple times idea came from that we wanted to create modern tools like guns and laser pistols and not and also be able to still use the arrow and sword and magic advanture ideas.
[20:12:58] <Induane> thebolt I was hoping to be able to make it "pop up" as ruins or at least soem evidence a house used to be theree
[20:13:06] <iceeey> CyaNox, probably
[20:13:55] <thebolt> Induane: yea, and that have big influence on both art and code..
[20:13:59] <sueastside> actually it came from HELL, where it was part of the class system...
[20:14:00] <CyaNox> Considering that we all prefere to make art for the middle ages ... why not use that time ... and remove the whole multiple time ideas from our goal?
[20:14:23] <Induane> I think it loses its uniqueness at that point - its one of the fun ideas
[20:14:36] <iceeey> can you justify it from a settings perspective?
[20:14:43] <Induane> yes
[20:15:03] <CyaNox> heh ... what I've read so far does not justify it for me.
[20:15:14] <iceeey> besides just being two separate games in one, what is it?
[20:15:15] <Induane> plus from a player standpoint I think it would be fun to try to understand some of the paradoxial elements in a way that makes sense
[20:15:21] <CyaNox> it still carries with itself too many inconcistencies.
[20:15:40] <Induane> time travel always does if you look at it from a completely literal perspective
[20:16:07] <Induane> CyaNox and what you have read is a small portion - I really need to get more out of my notes and online
[20:16:14] <Induane> too much isn't explained adequately
[20:16:18] <CyaNox> Induane: The problem with the paradoxial things is that we need to understand all of them very clearly and also make our AI, evolving world, and all other ideas work correctly with it.
[20:16:32] <thebolt> i think the story surrounding time travel etc must be very well written and defined
[20:16:39] <thebolt> otherwise it just becomes what iceeey said.. two games in one
[20:16:46] <Induane> correct
[20:17:21] <thebolt> and i am not sure it can be done in a good-enough way
[20:17:33] <thebolt> easy to end up too much in "back to the future" like setting ;)
[20:17:37] <Induane> Hard to put the underlying part of this into words that feel adequate but I will try.. players in teh game have complete freedom to do what they wish - but if the settings are intriguing enough they should be at least in some way trying to figure things out
[20:17:47] <CyaNox> owh and Induane Also consider that I prefere to give the player freedom ... so no guards who kill you if you try to enter a protal when your level 20 or <.
[20:17:56] <iceeey> one idea is to simply use the knowledge from the past as a "clue" in a quest in the future
[20:18:04] <Induane> yes!
[20:18:06] <Induane> exactly!~
[20:18:20] <iceeey> or the reverse
[20:18:32] <Induane> CyaNox the guards dont' kill you if you have certain trinkets that can be found
[20:18:35] <iceeey> I don't know if that is enough to justify it, especially if the player can change the world
[20:18:38] <Induane> but they are difficult to get to
[20:18:47] <Induane> because in the present the areas are relatively dangerous
[20:18:51] <CyaNox> Induane: Well still its a limitations ...
[20:19:00] <sueastside> but doing things in the past affecting the future is going to far imho, too hard to implement i think...
[20:19:01] <Induane> everything has its limitations depending on perspective
[20:19:18] <Induane> I don't want too much from the past to effect the present
[20:19:36] <Induane> because part of the moral of the story relies on a bit of inevedability
[20:19:53] <Induane> players will discover that instead of trying to change the past
[20:19:57] <Induane> they shoudl instead learn from its mistakes
[20:20:02] <Induane> and apply that to the present
[20:20:09] <sueastside> ok
[20:20:32] <Induane> so a good portion relies on that premise
[20:20:35] <CyaNox> well if we are going to use an evolving world we have yet another problem with multiple times ... do they work independant or not? if they are independent its easy to implement ... if they are not and what happens in the past time should be visible in the future you will get problems.
[20:21:07] <sueastside> id say independent..
[20:21:23] <Induane> I'd like it mostly independant as well
[20:21:35] <thebolt> yea.. as they both will evolve simultaneously in play-time
[20:21:41] <Induane> preciesely
[20:21:45] <CyaNox> then we will have a city in tha past where in the future mountains exist.
[20:21:45] <thebolt> say someone builds a house in future
[20:21:58] <thebolt> then in the past someone goes and puts a river there
[20:21:58] <Induane> present*
[20:22:11] <thebolt> now, technically the house in the future/present cannot be there anymore
[20:22:12] <Induane> do we want peopel to be able to make nature?
[20:22:17] <thebolt> but in play-time it are already made ;)
[20:22:22] <iceeey> s/river/canal
[20:22:31] <Induane> depends on the ammount of building we allow
[20:22:31] <thebolt> hm.. the multiple times stuff gets all messy and strange
[20:22:35] <iceeey> but it applies to artwork as well
[20:22:45] <iceeey> you're going to have to check the consistency of everything
[20:22:47] <Induane> the artwork part will be fun I think
[20:22:52] <Induane> challenging to be sure but quite fun
[20:22:55] <thebolt> cause if they evolve independently you don't get the feeling that they are connected
[20:23:33] <sueastside> hmm true
[20:23:34] <Induane> well I'd prefer most players major influence on the world to be easier to apply in the present than the past
[20:23:51] <CyaNox> brb ... phone
[20:23:59] <Induane> you go to the past to learn things, recover technology thats lost, etc
[20:24:14] <iceeey> how do you time travel?
[20:24:17] <thebolt> hm, to me it seems the multiple times idea brings very many places where you will get inconsistency
[20:24:32] <Induane> it doesn't have to be inconsistant
[20:24:51] <Induane> so long as the settings feel connected
[20:25:17] <iceeey> but you realize that the dynamic aspect makes it possible for the worlds to diverge complete so that they are not alike at all
[20:25:39] <thebolt> well, i think we've just seen that combining dynamic nature and the time aspect gives you inconsistency very easily
[20:25:42] <Induane> I think it would take a great degree of a dynamic system to diverge it that much
[20:25:48] <iceeey> thebolt, hehe, quite true
[20:26:00] <thebolt> so either would have to yield in favour of the other
[20:26:14] <Induane> I'm not so certain they are mutually exclusive
[20:27:06] <iceeey> it depends on the degree of time travel and the degree of dynamicness, they are inversely related
[20:27:23] <Induane> very true
[20:27:31] <Induane> but I think a balance would be easy to strike
[20:27:47] <thebolt> i don't think so
[20:27:53] <thebolt> if it was we wouldn't be discussing it ;)
[20:27:59] <iceeey> :)
[20:28:09] * iceeey waits for eureka moment
[20:28:17] <thebolt> so, it seems we won't solve that now.. maybe continue with some other points on the agenda?
[20:28:25] <thebolt> otherwise we won't finish until way too late ;)
[20:28:29] <iceeey> thebolt, as usual
[20:28:59] <iceeey> sure let's continue
[20:30:07] * thebolt lets iceeey be in charge of meeting ;)
[20:30:37] <Induane> lol
[20:30:40] <Induane> <3
[20:30:40] <iceeey> okay, Requirements
[20:30:48] <iceeey> Licenses
[20:31:01] <iceeey> code GPL?
[20:31:06] <sueastside> yes
[20:31:13] <iceeey> what about the engine part?
[20:31:21] <thebolt> i am not too big fan of GPL..
[20:31:28] <thebolt> but maybe it is best in this case..
[20:31:41] <sueastside> thebolt: what do you propose?
[20:32:34] <thebolt> sueastside: not sure, for "central" parts either LGPL or an LGPL/MPLish dual license.. GPL or so for "game specific"
[20:32:46] <thebolt> i am not license expert..
[20:32:57] <iceeey> well consider what we want: people can modify the game, but do we require they release the changes?
[20:32:58] <thebolt> (i guess none of us is ;)
[20:34:11] <sueastside> preferably yes, dont like some commercial bastard leeching on our backs :)
[20:34:34] <Induane> gpl would probably be best for that then
[20:34:55] <iceeey> sueastside, nothing to do with commercial, has to do with proprietary
[20:36:05] <Induane> with it gpl then people could create derivative works but would have to release all changes back correct?
[20:36:19] <thebolt> they would have to make all their derivative work GPL
[20:36:31] <thebolt> one problem is that all libraries used in GPL code also must be GPL
[20:36:40] <thebolt> or GPL compatible (LGPL for example)
[20:36:58] <iceeey> that is a fuzzy area, does dynamic linking imply derivative work?
[20:37:07] <thebolt> GPL says it does
[20:37:12] <thebolt> it hasn't been tested in court
[20:37:18] <thebolt> and it depends on what country you talk about ;)
[20:37:34] <thebolt> (its been discussed a great deal on lkml with regards to kernel modules ;)
[20:38:06] <iceeey> but LGPL allows it
[20:38:11] <thebolt> yes
[20:38:37] <thebolt> there is an explicit section in the LGPL on it
[20:39:20] <iceeey> still GPL has some kind of nasty things: option to use any later version of the GPL, requiring derivative works to be GPL (not so bad for our game)
[20:39:33] <thebolt> iceeey: you don't have to use the "or later" part
[20:39:43] <thebolt> (and you can have same "or later" with LGPL)
[20:39:47] <CyaNox> bwah .. any idea how annoying a grandma is who is dementing?
[20:39:51] <iceeey> and I'd prefer not to :)
[20:39:58] <CyaNox> but still knows how to use a phone?
[20:40:02] <thebolt> the real problem i see with GPL is the requirement of all used libs to be GPL
[20:40:25] <thebolt> so we cannot use a propritary (but still free as in no $$) (for example)
[20:40:34] <iceeey> then no Cg?
[20:40:37] <thebolt> for example
[20:40:52] <thebolt> (unless you consider Cg to be part of "normal operating system libraries")
[20:41:02] <thebolt> otoh, PT wouldn't use Cg directly but via an LGPL library
[20:41:08] <thebolt> not sure how to interpret it then
[20:41:26] <iceeey> it's really fuzzy stuff :) another reason not to use GPL
[20:42:04] <Induane> we could wait and see what the final iteration of the gplv3 looks like
[20:42:25] <thebolt> Induane: well, we need to decide on what license stuff should be under preferably before writing it ;)
[20:43:42] <greenlion> use simple, short and understable BSD license :)
[20:43:50] <sueastside> LGPL is fuzzy too? or just less fuzzy on the derrivate work and linking?
[20:44:08] <thebolt> less fuzzy in those areas
[20:44:32] <CyaNox> why again are we discussing licensing?
[20:44:46] <thebolt> not sure.. iceeey brought it up :)
[20:45:22] <iceeey> it is a subgoal... we are making it free software for a reason
[20:45:43] <iceeey> we need to discuss what people may do with the things we produce
[20:45:56] <CyaNox> if you want to people to have freedom with our code I'd go for lgpl ...
[20:46:43] <CyaNox> and for art ... well I'd go with one of the cc licenses ... and then its just discussing if we want to generally allow commercial use.
[20:47:37] <Induane> I don't see why not so long as code changes are released back to you guys
[20:47:40] <CyaNox> then again ... we (as peragro tempus development group) have the copyright so the right to change the license later.
[20:48:07] <thebolt> CyaNox: my only problem with GPL in peragro is the requirements on stuff we want to use it impose..
[20:48:36] <thebolt> CyaNox: well, depending on country an individual cannot "reassign" copyright;)
[20:48:46] <thebolt> licenses suck :/
[20:48:55] <CyaNox> IMO the license is just like the color of the bikeshed.
[20:49:12] <sueastside> i want it in green!
[20:49:16] <thebolt> Well, it is a bit more important than painitng the bikeshed
[20:49:21] <thebolt> but it is almost a bikeshed issue
[20:49:43] <thebolt> so lets stay with what we have until we find what we want to change to and why :)
[20:49:52] <CyaNox> agrees
[20:49:57] <greenlion> and are you going to have any 'private data' or all data in public?
[20:49:58] <iceeey> ok, GPL for game, LGPL engine, CC art/setting?
[20:50:00] <sueastside> agreed, next topic plz...
[20:50:27] <iceeey> greenlion, that is the next topic
[20:51:06] <greenlion> ok
[20:51:38] <iceeey> i would say the only thing that should be private is any security issue that might create a problem if everyone knew about it before we could fix it
[20:51:57] <iceeey> otherwise, all development should happen in the open, including art and setting
[20:52:09] <iceeey> if people want to read spoilers, that's they're choice
[20:52:42] <thebolt> i can agree it should be open.. does not have to mean we activly push it out
[20:52:43] * CyaNox agrees
[20:53:02] <sueastside> aye
[20:53:09] <thebolt> ie it is open to whomever wants to see it, but we don't have to put the latest setting changes on front page of website ;)
[20:53:19] <iceeey> thebolt, in the sense that you may allow code to sit on your harddrive for more than a second ;)
[20:53:46] <thebolt> iceeey: ?
[20:53:48] <CyaNox> just like everybody can read the commit messages but we don't advertise them.
[20:54:09] <iceeey> thebolt, technically if the code is on your harddrive and you didn't commit, it's private :P
[20:54:19] <thebolt> iceeey: yes ;)
[20:55:33] <greenlion> so, if you are going to put all in public, will I be able to start my server the same as main? will there be any policies/license on it?
[20:57:01] <sueastside> yes, no
[20:57:49] <iceeey> we don't have any restriction on how you run the program beyond what is specified in the licenses (GPL, LGPL, CC)
[20:57:58] <thebolt> apart from any conditions the CC art license etc, no
[20:58:49] <sueastside> no, apart from the non-commercial part in the CC...
[20:59:02] <thebolt> so, openness & license part is finished?
[20:59:12] <greenlion> you considering database data as an art?
[21:00:03] <iceeey> well it falls under content, and it will have a license, so it will have probably the same restrictions as art
[21:00:07] <CyaNox> eehhmmm mostly what is in the database is state information. Which closely links to art so I guess partually.
[21:00:30] <iceeey> oh, i see
[21:00:44] <iceeey> that's interesting since the players sort of 'created' the data
[21:01:00] <thebolt> part of it at least
[21:01:02] <CyaNox> indeed
[21:01:15] <iceeey> that is up to the server admin of course
[21:01:26] <iceeey> but what will our main policy be?
[21:01:28] <CyaNox> they will however be using cc artwork for their creation which also can have a deravative work clause.
[21:01:33] <CyaNox> (or how you say that)
[21:01:58] <thebolt> well, su
[21:02:01] <iceeey> will we make the main server data public?
[21:02:06] <thebolt> well, its hard to draw the line
[21:02:16] <thebolt> say the user modify the world.. it is derivative work of the original world
[21:02:22] <thebolt> iceeey: i would say no
[21:02:28] <iceeey> obviously not passwords
[21:02:34] <iceeey> I agree
[21:02:43] <iceeey> then the answer to greenlion's second question is no
[21:02:48] <thebolt> then players could get it and see what items exists exactly where.. what things other players have etc etc
[21:02:51] <sueastside> no, just initial data...
[21:02:53] <iceeey> err, first question
[21:03:04] <iceeey> right, only initial data
[21:03:12] <CyaNox> we might at some point (for the web3.0 hype) allow rdf feeds with player positions and basics stats ... but thats just basic ...
[21:03:46] <thebolt> hm, i need to wash up and get back to my desktop (running out of battery in laptop)
[21:03:49] <thebolt> bb in 5 minutes
[21:04:40] <CyaNox> I propose a break ... :p
[21:04:51] <iceeey> ok, till thebolt gets back
[21:04:56] <CyaNox> (imagine a big pause button in the game)
[21:05:21] <Induane> hehe
[21:05:23] <Induane> freezing time
[21:05:24] <Induane> :D
[21:09:50] <greenlion> and you have in initial data anything except player data and state?
[21:11:32] <sueastside> yes i guess so
[21:11:59] <iceeey> well it has its initial state
[21:12:00] <thebolt> b
[21:13:09] <sueastside> next topic?
[21:13:10] <iceeey> well this is an interesting problem since how do you change the world after it has evolved? it would seem you could only do this on one server
[21:13:32] <thebolt> iceeey: depends, but hm.. it is an interesting problem, definitly
[21:13:52] <CyaNox> iceeey: Do you mean changing the initial state or changing the evolved world?
[21:14:35] <iceeey> it's hard to say
[21:14:41] <sueastside> as in clone the main server world at a certain time to another server?
[21:15:17] <iceeey> then every server is the same
[21:15:42] <CyaNox> well server under our control should be ...
[21:16:01] <CyaNox> all the others are maintained by others ... I'd say they are not our problem.
[21:16:13] <iceeey> but if the artists work on the art, they are working on our server state
[21:16:47] <CyaNox> well the state of the world should not have an influnce on the art.
[21:17:23] <Induane> oh
[21:17:33] <CyaNox> for instance a tree house can be in any tree aslong as it fits the tree ... in one world it can be on another tree then on our server.
[21:17:47] <CyaNox> smaller objects are even easier.
[21:18:15] <CyaNox> But when it comes to castles and such ... well I think a special "non-evolving" zone could protect that castle.
[21:18:19] <iceeey> well say you want to add a mountain but the land has already evolved to be a lake or so? how is that applied to a server which has an altered state?
[21:18:45] <thebolt> hm, i think some kind of lock-work-place scheme could be devised?
[21:18:54] <thebolt> so you lock a certain area for modification
[21:19:10] <iceeey> construction zone :)
[21:19:11] <thebolt> (or.. you don't change existing stuff, just add new ;)
[21:19:12] <thebolt> yea :)
[21:19:29] <CyaNox> owh you mean the actual life editing ...
[21:19:44] <CyaNox> yeah a construction zone (or a glitch in the matrix) could work.
[21:19:58] <CyaNox> s/life/live/
[21:20:27] <iceeey> still, there are some places where you might not have thought to mark as a construction zone
[21:20:45] <thebolt> iceeey: well, i mean the artist have to start from the state the world is when starting to add new things
[21:21:00] <thebolt> but i think adding new stuff to existing world rather than expanding it would be quite rare
[21:21:14] <thebolt> (and during development one could allow a "reset" of evolvement in certain areas if really needed..)
[21:21:22] <iceeey> i guess so
[21:22:05] <iceeey> so now that we're on the subject, how do we actually create the art?
[21:22:35] <iceeey> we still going to make that in-game editor?
[21:22:42] <CyaNox> I think part of the zone desing should also include design of an in-game editor.
[21:23:09] * CyaNox and iceeey are way to scary on the same level of thoughts ... :p
[21:23:53] <thebolt> hm, not sure in-game.. but definitly "in system" will be required imo
[21:24:01] <iceeey> right
[21:24:07] <thebolt> the best game editor i've seen so far is Sandbox for Far Cry
[21:24:10] <thebolt> it is outstanding
[21:24:14] <iceeey> whether it's in-game or not does not matter..
[21:24:17] <iceeey> but realtime?
[21:24:20] <sueastside> yes
[21:24:21] <thebolt> yea
[21:24:31] <sueastside> posted a movie a few days ago in -dev...
[21:24:34] * CyaNox nods
[21:24:38] <Induane> :D makes me think of sauerbraten
[21:25:17] <sueastside> http://divx-084.vo.llnwd.net/stage6vid/1145935.divx
[21:25:25] <iceeey> so I think initially everything should be a construction zone
[21:27:36] <thebolt> so, where are we on agenda and whats next? :)
[21:27:44] <thebolt> art pipeline?
[21:27:50] <iceeey> yeah
[21:28:01] <iceeey> do you want to talk a bit about the editor?
[21:28:18] <thebolt> i think it is resonably to think we will need a custom editor tied into the system
[21:28:40] <thebolt> for almost everything but the actual creation of meshes and textures
[21:28:47] <iceeey> indeed
[21:28:51] <iceeey> there is usually a disconnect where people end up using only blender/b2cs to make the whole world
[21:29:24] <iceeey> so our editor is basically a scene compositor
[21:30:13] <CyaNox> and game state editor.
[21:30:22] <iceeey> right, two functions
[21:30:29] <CyaNox> maybe even add quest editing
[21:30:51] <thebolt> i think it makes sense to have most of those functions in same tool, yes
[21:30:54] <iceeey> any kind of content editing besides mesh creation occurs in the editor?
[21:31:06] <CyaNox> I'd say yes.
[21:31:09] <thebolt> yea (o rwell, not sound editing either, but you get the idea ;)
[21:31:46] <iceeey> ok, and how do we store the finished product?
[21:32:02] <iceeey> the state will all be put directly on the server
[21:32:11] <CyaNox> well this type of editing should be done as a special client connected to the server
[21:32:17] <thebolt> i think the most realistic option is to make the editor work directly against a server
[21:32:26] <thebolt> not the production server neccesarily
[21:32:29] <thebolt> but a server
[21:32:31] * CyaNox goes bakc to nodding
[21:32:48] <iceeey> ok that makes sense
[21:32:57] <thebolt> i guess we'll end up with some kind of "changeset" descriptions or so for keeping a change together
[21:33:21] <thebolt> so the editor keeps track of a delta which can then be applied to the real server
[21:33:35] <iceeey> doing it on a dev server only applies to non-state changes
[21:34:14] <CyaNox> imo all editing should be on the life server ... either in protected or not yet open to public zones.
[21:35:23] <iceeey> well there's some things you don't want to put there because it might crash it, or it might have a heavy load...
[21:36:06] <iceeey> any editing on dev server only applies to construction zones
[21:36:08] <CyaNox> ok then a test server for all experimental stuff but still keep the editing life.
[21:36:44] <CyaNox> or hhhmmm
[21:36:48] <CyaNox> brb
[21:37:08] <iceeey> if you modify a non-construction zone, the public server can accept the changes or ignore them
[21:37:29] <iceeey> but modifying the state on a dev server only helps if you are testing the function of modifying state only :)
[21:39:40] <CyaNox> I think both options should be available.
[21:41:55] <thebolt> i think one of the major problems we'll have implementation-wise is comming up with a format to store the world state :P
[21:41:55] <CyaNox> ok next?
[21:42:05] <thebolt> sure
[21:43:26] <iceeey> art repository
[21:43:43] <iceeey> right now we have them in two SVN modules
[21:44:22] <iceeey> this is good, but I suggest that we make use of SVN properties to store metadata like license and author rather than directories and files
[21:44:46] <iceeey> and since SVN is rather not friendly to artists, especially if you do that, it would be cool if we made a web interface to the repository
[21:45:15] <sueastside> sure
[21:45:24] <greenlion> does SVN save history for metadata?
[21:45:54] <CyaNox> thats something up my alley ... I'll think about the feasability and possibly an implementation (unless someone already knows something).
[21:45:59] <CyaNox> greenlion: yes.
[21:46:07] <greenlion> good
[21:47:16] <iceeey> ok then
[21:47:32] <iceeey> let's move to development approach
[21:48:03] <iceeey> we want to do this bottom up, iteratively, with each milestone representing some kind of completed feature set
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[21:48:23] <iceeey> I think it's only feasible for a task this size to grow like this
[21:48:33] <thebolt> Yes
[21:48:37] <CyaNox> indeed
[21:48:56] <iceeey> so in context of art, we seem to have solved this problem with the construction zones
[21:49:39] <iceeey> I think it will be hard to make the setting appear complete in the early stages
[21:50:20] <iceeey> usually setting is neglected as code and art tend to move slower
[21:50:32] <iceeey> neglected in the game at least
[21:50:50] <CyaNox> we might need to assign someone to monitor this at some point.
[21:51:36] <iceeey> it will help that we define what we want out of all three at each milestone so that they don't diverge too far
[21:51:50] <CyaNox> indeed
[21:52:37] <CyaNox> but what does Induane think about this ... he currently is the most active settings developer.
[21:53:30] <iceeey> since milestones are feature based, it seems we should not set a fixed date for each to be completed... although having a fixed time does help with motivation
[21:54:26] <CyaNox> some dislike it so we could go with a comprimise and make it a vaguely fixed time like "april 2007"
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[22:00:27] <CyaNox> so who is still discussing (besides me and iceeey)?
[22:00:35] <thebolt> ah, sorry guys
[22:00:42] <thebolt> got phone and then had to fix a little thingy
[22:01:08] <sueastside> i am, carefully reading over opinions...
[22:02:07] <CyaNox> ok ... what is next iceeey ?
[22:02:19] <iceeey> well I would like to decide on how to do milestones
[22:03:22] <iceeey> so it is agreed that we give it a vague date?
[22:04:02] <sueastside> yeah , if you put something explicit, something always comes up :)
[22:04:12] <iceeey> alright
[22:04:23] <iceeey> now, about the release process
[22:04:34] <iceeey> how public are we going to make these?
[22:05:20] <CyaNox> almost front page public?
[22:05:33] <CyaNox> atleast the releases could go into the news on the site
[22:05:48] <iceeey> would nice to tell the rest of the web about our releases so we can attract some interest
[22:05:56] <CyaNox> and if we feel like it we could do some /amsg'ing of our release ... :p
[22:06:20] <joseAway> I'll put them in the #planeshift channel topic until talad ejects me :P
[22:06:31] <CyaNox> great idea
[22:06:33] <iceeey> we have always had some policy of not publicizing much since we were afraid of people distracting us, but I don't think this is founded
[22:06:47] <iceeey> it's important for us too to get some interest
[22:06:52] <thebolt> well, i think before trying to get any publicity there should be any substantial to show
[22:07:14] <CyaNox> ofcourse we are not even close to a realease at this moment.
[22:07:28] <iceeey> yeah I suppose we will have to find some point which is substantial
[22:07:43] <iceeey> ok
[22:07:55] <iceeey> but we will still package it and publish news no matter what
[22:08:08] <iceeey> news on front page i mean
[22:09:11] <CyaNox> yes ... what about RC's and alpha's/beta's?
[22:10:26] <iceeey> they are not more than big milestones are they?
[22:10:53] <iceeey> "stable" releases are different though
[22:11:21] <iceeey> next?
[22:11:27] <CyaNox> y
[22:11:47] <iceeey> ok, so we want some kind of script to generate packages
[22:12:00] <iceeey> that'll be one task to add
[22:12:00] <CyaNox> rolenum where are you?
[22:13:01] <iceeey> okay
[22:13:10] <CyaNox> rolenum once offered to create something like a script for building ... not sure if he still wants to do that.
[22:13:12] iceeey has quit: Remote closed the connection
[22:13:12] <joseAway> CyaNox, sueastside ran him off
[22:13:32] <CyaNox> joseAway: how?
[22:13:42] iceeey has joined #peragro
[22:13:42] ChanServ sets mode: +o iceeey
[22:13:47] <joseAway> ask him
[22:13:48] <joseAway> bbl
[22:13:56] <iceeey> oops
[22:13:59] <CyaNox> iceeey: don't press the small X
[22:14:08] <iceeey> :)
[22:14:11] <CyaNox> 22:13 -!- iceeey [n=ice@unaffiliated/iceeey] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[22:14:17] <CyaNox> I mean ... aarr
[22:14:22] <CyaNox> 22:13 <@CyaNox> rolenum once offered to create something like a script for building ... not sure if he still wants to do that.
[22:14:28] <iceeey> right
[22:14:39] <iceeey> he was making some generic tool, i dunno when he'll finish
[22:14:51] <iceeey> anyway
[22:15:04] <CyaNox> its going to be a todo item ... :p
[22:15:14] <iceeey> we need to clean up the wiki, trac, website, and maybe art repository
[22:15:53] <iceeey> and specifically the website is pretty bad as it is the face of our public image
[22:16:13] <thebolt> yea
[22:16:24] <CyaNox> I wouldn't be too consirned just yet about the website at this point unless you like to redesign it.
[22:16:33] <iceeey> I won't redesign it for now
[22:16:36] <thebolt> the current data there doesn't give a serious impression :P
[22:16:51] <CyaNox> blame me ... :D
[22:17:24] <CyaNox> it did howevere create some interresting conversations ... :p
[22:18:05] <iceeey> I volunteer to update it
[22:18:09] <CyaNox> anyway I think the wiki is relativly clean ... might need some changing depending on what we decide on the multiple time issue but afaik its more or less clean.
[22:18:32] <CyaNox> The trac well it has not been used in a while so tickets will probably be outdated and might not fit our goal.
[22:18:49] <CyaNox> The art repository ... not sure ...
[22:18:50] <iceeey> it might be clean but it's rather outdated
[22:18:52] * CyaNox pokes sueastside
[22:20:08] <CyaNox> iceeey: Do you mean the wiki? afaik its not that outdated just not edited that much lately.
[22:20:09] <sueastside> CyaNox: the art might need some relayouting, to be conform with the editor perhaps...
[22:20:31] <CyaNox> sueastside: Well yes but what about the content in it?
[22:21:00] <iceeey> CyaNox, well most of the code stuff is outdated
[22:21:24] <sueastside> up to date, except for the keep and some recently made stuff..
[22:21:34] <CyaNox> ok
[22:21:42] <CyaNox> and ok
[22:22:11] sueastside changed nick to: bathman
[22:22:24] <bathman> bbl
[22:22:29] <thebolt> hm, me as a non-artist would like to see some more "overall" / "concept-level" on the art side to get a feeling for where we're aiming.. might be something to consider..
[22:22:53] <iceeey> maybe update the concept art page to only include stuff we might actually use :)
[22:23:37] <bathman> thebolt: what do you mean exactly?
[22:23:57] <iceeey> we've covered almost everything
[22:24:03] <CyaNox> yes ... I'll take a look at that stuff (I'll make a ticket for myself else I'll forget)
[22:24:30] <thebolt> well, there's no concept art covering the "wide" part.. just some specifics
[22:24:35] <thebolt> also i think it is pretty.. divergent ;)
[22:25:11] <bathman> its a big world to fill :)
[22:25:33] <greenlion> may I ask a question not in current agenda? :)
[22:25:38] <iceeey> certainly
[22:25:43] <thebolt> yea, but at least to me it would be great to see a little bit of a "top down" approach there to get some kind of overview of how the world looks etc
[22:25:43] <bathman> ofcourse
[22:25:48] <greenlion> are you going to allow to sell/buy items/characters for real money?
[22:26:06] <iceeey> thebolt, yeah i had that in agenda a bit :)
[22:26:08] <bathman> thebolt: global map?
[22:26:19] <iceeey> setting needs more top-down than the other two
[22:27:31] <CyaNox> greenlion: depends on what people think about it ... also depends on how our account security and cheat protection is.
[22:27:50] <thebolt> my initial reaction would be, no :)
[22:28:08] <bathman> im personnally against it, real world stuff should stay away from a game!
[22:28:45] <bathman> and with stuff i mean money...
[22:28:50] <CyaNox> I'd also say no ... we don't want to build another second life.
[22:28:57] <greenlion> good! :)
[22:29:09] <iceeey> i disagree
[22:29:15] <iceeey> ... kidding
[22:29:34] <CyaNox> ah too bad I was just in the mood to start arguing ... :p
[22:29:54] <greenlion> have to go. bye all! :)
[22:30:00] <iceeey> cya greenlion, nice having you
[22:30:00] <CyaNox> bye greenlion
[22:30:22] greenlion has parted: "zzz"
[22:30:31] <iceeey> anyone want to start planning of milestones or further discussion of times or setting or what? :)
[22:31:17] <CyaNox> Well I'l be here for about the next 30 minutes and will gladly input my opinions ... (owh and iceeey also note thebolt's question in -dev).
[22:31:39] <iceeey> didn't see it thanks
[22:31:41] <bathman> thebolt: with the overview what do you mean? shape of the world? layout of places? general art style? division of the world?
[22:32:35] <thebolt> yea
[22:32:36] <thebolt> all of those :)
[22:33:50] <bathman> thebolt: the latter, i asked a question about earlier, not sure if you missed me or just ignoring me :)
[22:34:06] <thebolt> i probably missed you
[22:34:37] <bathman> thebolt: I've been wondering on how to partition our world, and what would be practical and technically feasible, atm. Having linked worlds like PS, a grid based terrain(what about threading, cell management and all that un/loading stuff), teleportation portals, ... other options?
[22:35:08] <thebolt> ah, well, the technical division shouldn't control the logical one
[22:35:31] <thebolt> but i'd say have a "seamless" world of zones as big as we like, use portals etc where they make sense art/style/settings wise et
[22:35:35] <thebolt> c
[22:36:54] <bathman> but without the editor, we wont actually be able to build the world?
[22:38:13] <thebolt> well, not in a way the game can load it
[22:39:42] <iceeey> editor is pretty high priority though
[22:39:48] <thebolt> yes
[22:40:14] <thebolt> however, that doesn't mean oen cannot draw the stuff i talked about on paper (in 2d ;)
[22:40:30] <iceeey> sooner we get db, networking, entity system working together, the better :)
[22:43:11] <bathman> thebolt: my desk is cluttered with paper, and im guessing something at Induane's place...
[22:43:22] <bathman> I find your lack of shampoo disturbing!
[22:43:29] <CyaNox> sounds like its time we bugged PK about the networking and server again ... (if he still wants to help)
[22:43:47] <thebolt> bathman: so.. give us others something to look at
[22:44:08] <thebolt> hm.. too bad my brother is so damn occupied with his GF these days.. otherwise i could try to drag him in to do concept art ;)
[22:44:13] <bathman> as soon as i learn to draw properly :P
[22:44:28] <thebolt> (he's pretty good at both futurustic stuff and environments;)
[22:44:34] <iceeey> i could drag my brother into doing music :P
[22:44:40] <iceeey> but i'm not so sure that's essential at this point
[22:44:48] <bathman> CyaNox: the will is there, the time is not i think...
[22:45:21] <CyaNox> what could be more important then PT?
[22:45:25] <CyaNox> :p
[22:46:54] <iceeey> so anyone up for talking about the first milestone?
[22:46:59] <thebolt> sure
[22:47:19] <thebolt> i am working on some Cs code while we speak.. merging new terrain so i can switch over to PT coding after that ;)
[22:48:49] <thebolt> (thats why i seem unresponsive at some short moments ;)
[22:49:17] <iceeey> some features to include: account creation, character creation, login/logout, chat
[22:50:07] <iceeey> means we need a client/server, a gui skin + layouts, some kind of db layer, networking, some kind of list of active clients
[22:50:21] <iceeey> essentially a chat server
[22:50:28] <iceeey> actually you might want to skip the whole gui thing
[22:50:31] <iceeey> make it text-based
[22:51:29] <iceeey> character creation might involve the entity system a little
[22:51:39] <iceeey> as would chat
[22:52:11] <thebolt> yea
[22:52:16] <thebolt> "player" entities
[22:52:17] <iceeey> it would have no setting, and if we skip the gui, this would have no art in it
[22:52:44] <iceeey> but we can have separate goals for those in the background
[22:55:11] <thebolt> yea, so code wise it would basically be a small chat-server but running on the system we want to use
[22:56:02] <thebolt> having some simple entities that can be created and saved in the database (the player characters), some simple network communication between client adn server
[23:02:25] <CyaNox> sounds mostly like we are quite close to that milestone already ... or am I mistaken?
[23:03:37] <iceeey> we have no networking, no db, entity system in construction
[23:04:22] <CyaNox> what about the code that already is in svn ... afaik it has networking and db?
[23:04:38] <iceeey> hm, I will have to look at those
[23:05:01] <iceeey> DB layer definitely will be different
[23:05:14] <iceeey> and networking, I don't think we will use code generation
[23:05:40] <iceeey> certainly should not be needed since we have a dynamic entity system
[23:06:13] <iceeey> for entity messages at least.. for other messages, it shouldn't be hard
[23:06:28] <thebolt> well, i don't think code-generation is the way to go anywhere
[23:06:45] <thebolt> in some cases hand-crafted messages, yes; but make the definition in a format that is actually source
[23:07:23] <iceeey> at this point, what level of DB abstraction do we want?
[23:08:26] <thebolt> hard to say
[23:08:36] <thebolt> ie without more research/working on it
[23:08:53] <iceeey> of course :)
[23:11:48] <CyaNox> I'm heading off ... gotta walk the dog and then do some thinking. I'll read the meeting notes tomorrow. GN.
[23:12:22] <iceeey> cya CyaNox
[23:21:14] bathman changed nick to: sueastside
[23:47:34] <sueastside> night